Intaglio
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Rogue Diagonals/Diagonals on Grid
I’m using Intaglio for creating schematic maps of railway networks, which means working with lots of graphics and lots of horizontal/vertical/45 degree diagonal lines. The problem I am having is that when I extend/shrink diagonals (using shift), or even copy and paste, they quite often go off true, e.g. they change to 44.5 degrees. These can be fixed, redrawn or by changing x/y dimensions in the geometry window, but I am finding myself correcting a lot of diagonals in this way. Is this a problem that other people are having.
When working with grid snap on, horizontal and vertical lines work fine, but I need also to link 45 degree diagonals to, say, horizontal lines via arcs. The grid snap takes care of the horizontal-arc connection, but the diagonal-arc connection is harder. Is there a reliable way to do this?
Hey Max, like Nick has previously pointed out, Intaglio isn’t really a CAD application, which is, I think, what you really need :)
Have you tried giving Ribbonsoft’s QCad a go? You can do all the things you suggest here with relative ease. QCad costs $28- making it affordable just to ‘try out’
I think it is best to leave Intaglio to what it’s best at, graphical illustrations (NOT to be confused with CAD!!).
Tom On 3 Jul 2008, at 14:42, Max Roberts wrote:
I’m using Intaglio for creating schematic maps of railway networks, which means working with lots of graphics and lots of horizontal/ vertical/45 degree diagonal lines. The problem I am having is that when I extend/shrink diagonals (using shift), or even copy and paste, they quite often go off true, e.g. they change to 44.5 degrees. These can be fixed, redrawn or by changing x/y dimensions in the geometry window, but I am finding myself correcting a lot of diagonals in this way. Is this a problem that other people are having.
When working with grid snap on, horizontal and vertical lines work fine, but I need also to link 45 degree diagonals to, say, horizontal lines via arcs. The grid snap takes care of the horizontal-arc connection, but the diagonal-arc connection is harder. Is there a reliable way to do this?
I’ve used a lot of graphics packages, and I have a lot of experience at creating maps, and Intaglio is perfect for what I want. The London Underground map might look complicated, but really its trivially easy from a vector perspective, just get a few lines to line up and connect together. Why would I need a CAD package? Most people in my field are using Illustrator, Freehand or Correl Draw for this. Thats just silly.
If Intaglio is not suitable for any CAD applications at all, why does it have a grid and smart guides?
All I am asking is that diagonal lines stay diagonal, and that there is an easy way to join them up to arcs precisely. Not a difficult task.
Max
On Jul 3, 2008, at 10:28 AM, Tom Fenn wrote:
Have you tried giving Ribbonsoft’s QCad a go? You can do all the things you suggest here with relative ease.
Just took a look. I thought it was impressive.
QCad costs $28- making it affordable just to ‘try out’
$38 but you can try it for 100 hours.
I think it is best to leave Intaglio to what it’s best at, graphical illustrations (NOT to be confused with CAD!!).
I agree but there is a difference between wishing for new features in the CAD direction and getting 44.5 for 45 degrees. Of course, that kind of precision would probably exact its own price.
Ah, why can’t we have everything for nothing?
Regards
Ah! The London Underground Map!
A design very close to my heart. My father is a Dr of topology you know! I did two parts of my BSc design thesis on the design of the Map- wonderful stuff!
You could freeze the line, and then scaling the rest. That may work, and because this is topology, it doesn’t really matter that much does it anyway, just as longs as it fits within specifications.
On 3 Jul 2008, at 15:44, Maxwell Roberts wrote:
The London Underground map might look complicated
Lets get some graphics up, show everyone what I mean.
Here everything is hunky dory, just how it should be:
privatewww.essex.ac.uk/~mjr/alligned.jpg
Now, I do some work elsewhere on the map, for a few days, I don’t go near this part, but when I print it out, its done this:
privatewww.essex.ac.uk/~mjr/notagain.jpg
Look at Feltham, bottom left, its all gone wong.
Otherwise, Intaglio is absolutely perfect, it could have been made for making maps.
Sigh. Yes I know. $38? They must have put the price up- but I’ve fooled even the best design draftspeople with this software. Quite impressive really.
Presently there are some really good bargains to be had out there, but most of them tend to be 2D only Sketchup is good, because the basic version is free, and I’m currently beta testing another which is ACIS based called ViaCAD. For the price, ViaCAD is really something.
On 3 Jul 2008, at 15:51, Alain Schremmer wrote:
Ah, why can’t we have everything for nothing?
Well that’s really great Max, and I presume this is you?;
www.essex.ac.uk/psychology/psy/PEOPLE/roberts/roberts.html
How can I even suggest replying to you when you send rather nasty emails to me off list?;
Quote; “I’ve just taken a look at QCAD and it is absolutely ghastly, please don’t make suggestions like this when you don’t have a clue what I am doing and don’t know what my needs are.”
All I was doing was trying to help, because I too have had similar problems.
Perhaps I won’t bother?
Tom
On 3 Jul 2008, at 16:07, Max Roberts wrote:
Otherwise, Intaglio is absolutely perfect, it could have been made for making maps.
Yes, thats me, I sent the reply off list because I felt you might prefer a ticking off off the board than in public.
Your comment was really unhelpful because (a) it risked taking the thread off in an irrelevant direction, and (b) its really not useful to say to someone, ‘I know what’s best for you’ when you don’t actually know what they are trying to do. Better to find out a bit more before proclaiming that they don’t have the sense to know what sort of software is right for the task.
EVERY map professional out there, and I really do know top professionals who do work for ATOC and TfL, uses vector packages for this task, they do not use CAD.
If other people are having similar problems, thats actually quite serious, it doesn’t matter what the task is, if vector objects are getting corrupted under certain circumstances, then whether it is a map or an illustration, then its going to cause trouble. I’ve certainly not come across this sort of object corruption in Canvas, Illustrator, Freehand, Superpaint, or ClarisDraw.
On Jul 3, 2008, at 11:07 AM, Max Roberts wrote:
Look at Feltham, bottom left, its all gone wong.
I had wondered about that half degree! Indeed! >
Otherwise, Intaglio is absolutely perfect, it could have been made for making maps.
Funny: I thought Intaglio had been made for drawing mathematical illustrations.
I think that there are a few other small bugs but haven’t had the time to track them down as they are not interfering with the drawings themselves.
Regards
On Jul 3, 2008, at 11:09 AM, Tom Fenn wrote:
Sigh. Yes I know. $38? They must have put the price up
Probably not: the dollar has been sinking fast.
Regards
Well, mathematical illustrations are perhaps not that far removed from schematic maps.
On the web pages of this researcher:
i11www.iti.uni-karlsruhe.de/algo/members/index.php?algouser=noelle&pagetype=research
You will find this document:
i11www.iti.uni-karlsruhe.de/members/noelle/pub/n-admm-tr05.pdf
On Jul 3, 2008, at 11:31 AM, Max Roberts wrote:
Yes, thats me, I sent the reply off list because I felt you might prefer a ticking off off the board than in public.
Being a self-exiled French in the US, I am not sure what “ticking off” connotes. Still, it seems to me that a “ticking off” was probably a bit of an overreaction to “a CAD application, which is, I think, what you really need” to which I would have probably responded with something like “Ever done that kind of map?”
Your comment was really unhelpful because (a) it risked taking the thread off in an irrelevant direction,
True but this old man doesn’t think that even an occasional highjack, let alone the risk thereof, is worth the risk of bad blood on a list.
and (b) its really not useful to say to someone, ‘I know what’s best for you’ when you don’t actually know what they are trying to do. Better to find out a bit more before proclaiming that they don’t have the sense to know what sort of software is right for the task.
Absolutely correct but then “Nobody is perfect”.
EVERY map professional out there, and I really do know top professionals who do work for ATOC and TfL, uses vector packages for this task, they do not use CAD.
Nobody is arguing that case. (Least of all myself.)
If other people are having similar problems, thats actually quite serious, it doesn’t matter what the task is, if vector objects are getting corrupted under certain circumstances, then whether it is a map or an illustration, then its going to cause trouble. I’ve certainly not come across this sort of object corruption in Canvas, Illustrator, Freehand, Superpaint, or ClarisDraw.
Absolutely true and I would have filed it as a bug.
Regards to all
On Jul 3, 2008, at 11:42 AM, Max Roberts wrote:
Well, mathematical illustrations are perhaps not that far removed from schematic maps.
On the web pages of this researcher:
i11www.iti.uni-karlsruhe.de/algo/members/index.php? algouser=noelle&pagetype=research
You will find this document:
i11www.iti.uni-karlsruhe.de/members/noelle/pub/n-admm-tr05.pdf
Well, mine are a bit more mundane but in the same context: LaTeX.
Best regards
I also design maps that look like this, try doing that on a CAD package. This one was done with Canvas, much better editing of handles:
On Jul 3, 2008, at 12:18 PM, Max Roberts wrote:
I also design maps that look like this, try doing that on a CAD package. This one was done with Canvas, much better editing of handles:
Very, very nice and absolutely no need to rub the CAD in. (By the way, I hated Canvas.)
Also by the way, I always liked the maps of the Parisian Metro a lot better than the schematic maps of the London Underground but, alas, the RATP is inching towards the schematic.
But I am going deep into Off Topic Territory.
Apologetic regards
Well that just shows what little you actually do know, because all 2D CAD is vector based.
But this is still no way to conduct yourself to anyone (academic or non-academic) on or off list.
I’ve certainly not come across this sort of object corruption in Canvas, Illustrator, Freehand, Superpaint, or ClarisDraw.
So why not use these packages instead?
From my experience as ahem, a professional, I do not know one single piece of software that doesn’t have at least 1 bug.
On 3 Jul 2008, at 16:31, Max Roberts wrote:
EVERY map professional out there, and I really do know top professionals who do work for ATOC and TfL, uses vector packages for this task, they do not use CAD.
Alain, it is worth reading about the Swiss mathematician Leonhard Euler. Euler solved the knotty problem of the 7 bridges of Konigsberg, using topology. Beck was later known to design the London Underground Map, but many assumed his design was based on that of an electrical circuit, which I suppose was slightly up to a point (pardon the pun), but had more in common with the findings of Euler. Worth reading up on :) On 3 Jul 2008, at 17:43, Alain Schremmer wrote:
I always liked the maps of the Parisian Metro a lot better than the schematic maps of the London Underground but, alas, the RATP is inching towards the schematic.
On Jul 3, 2008, at 12:44 PM, Tom Fenn wrote:
Well that just shows what little you actually do know, because all 2D CAD is vector based.
But this is still no way to conduct yourself to anyone (academic or non-academic) on or off list.
I’ve certainly not come across this sort of object corruption in Canvas, Illustrator, Freehand, Superpaint, or ClarisDraw.
So why not use these packages instead?
I can think of any number of reasons.
Aside from that, I think that it might be gracious of youand in the interest of allto let go. As much as I like to have the last words, occasionally even I realize that it is not necessarily a good thing.
Anyway, it seems we all agree that Intaglio is a good thing even though not perfect.
Regards
OT!!! OT!!! OT!!! OT!!!
On Jul 3, 2008, at 1:10 PM, Tom Fenn wrote:
[I]t is worth reading about the Swiss mathematician Leonhard Euler.
As a professional mathematician, I cannot but wholeheartedly agree with you. :-))
In fact, Euler is, with Poincaré, the mathematician I most relate to. (But I had my Bourbaki moment of folly too.)
Regards
LOL!
finally this thread is getting better! :)
Okay, fair enough, but to most, one whiff of the mention of maths and most folk are off in the opposite direction!
You know this is the one thing I really don’t like about the Intaglio list- well this list. A forum should be a place of discussion, and a place to upload images (I have literally hundreds, all done with Intaglio, some good, others not so good
A forum should be a place, Socrates would have hoped for- if he were alive today.
bset,
Tom On 3 Jul 2008, at 18:38, Alain Schremmer wrote:
OT!!! OT!!! OT!!! OT!!!
On Jul 3, 2008, at 1:10 PM, Tom Fenn wrote:
[I]t is worth reading about the Swiss mathematician Leonhard Euler.
As a professional mathematician, I cannot but wholeheartedly agree with you. :-))
In fact, Euler is, with Poincaré, the mathematician I most relate to. (But I had my Bourbaki moment of folly too.)
Regards —schremmer
FWIW, there’s a problem with the resize is currently done. Currently you’re just scaling the object over and over as you drag a handle. However when you get the size of the object down near zero then scale it back up again rounding errors can accumulate. I’m updating the way resize works to avoid this in version 3.0.
Excellent, it seems to be a problem when I make any big scale, so that seems to be related to my problem, although sometimes copying and pasting a diagonal also result in corruption.
I was wondering whether it might be related to memory problems, as I seem to get this most with my most complicated maps, the more complicated the more errors.
I’m using 10.4.10 with a 2MB Mac Mini Intel.
Max, out of interest, on the Underground map, how did you create the triangle that’s defined by Hounslow, Feltham and Whitton?
I did it by drawing 3 paths, converting the strokes to fills and combining the shapes into a single closed path with Unite. Unfortunately, the inside of the triangle was filled with colour, not transparent. The solution was to click the Even/Odd button in the Fill palette. This made the triangle transparent, but it was far from obvious.
As a further test, I drew an extra closed path between the 45 degree and horizontal paths and clicked Even/Odd. The ‘hole’ was transparent, but the triangle disappeared! After a lot of fiddling, I eventually recreated the ‘triangle’, but it was a real performance.
Ian,
Its real noddy stuff, just four strokes and two arcs (three green, three yellow). What I like about Intaglio is its really easy to line everything up properly, either by smartguides (horizontals and verticals) or by eye (diagonals, around 800% magnification and a couple of arrow dabs gets it perfect).
I don’t like the way that the various paths options seem to work in Intaglio (combine, unite etc.), after Canvas, they seem primitive and clunky. I’m not asking for extra features, just noting that they don’t buy me anything for my particular work, and so they may as well not be there. Of course, I might not be understanding them, not much to the manual.
Map designers are generally quite a conservative bunch, they prefer simple strokes and arcs, and avoid program specific features whenever possible. The reason for this is many years of things that look great on the screen going horribly wrong when converted to eps, makes the designers very cautious.
I finally sussed out how to do it at 1 am this morning!
- Draw the paths. In this case, the stroke was made 14 pts wide and coloured yellow.
- Select Object>Convert>Stroke to Fill. The stroke (or arc) is converted to a closed path.
- Select All.
- Select Object>Paths>Combine. This seems to be the key step.
- Select Object>Paths>Unite. The inside of the ‘triangle’ shape (which should be transparent) is filled with colour.
- Click the Even/Odd button in the Fill palette. The inside of the ‘triangle’ becomes transparent.
- Make the stroke 7 pts wide and colour it green.
When it comes to path operations, Canvas, Illustrator (v6) and Expression are much easier to use. For example, in all 3 programs, if you draw a ‘jailhouse window’ where the window frame and bars are oblong closed paths, all you do is draw the oblong shapes, select all, Unite them into a single shape and the ‘holes’ between the bars are automatically transparent. You don’t have to Combine the shapes prior to Uniting them, or press Even/Odd to create the transparency. In this respect, Intaglio is more complex than it needs to be.
