Is it viable for a "print" guy like me to "get it."?

I came to Freeway as a successful print guy who wanted to design simple web pages visually. Period.

Right now, I design my sites in Photoshop and I have freelance production guys execute them.

I would like to continue that — but also create simple sites myself.

Have you or someone you know done this successfully? Is this viable?

It would be so valuable for me to hear about a similar experience.

Thanks.

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Yes - certainly.

I came from a Quarkcentric background and found that FW used a great deal of the same shortcuts etc. Of course if you are coming from InDesign then it’s not quite as straightforward.

But notwithstanding there is no reason why you cannot put together perfectly good sites - and with practice very comprehensive ones.

Start by working through the tutorials.

David

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Thanks very much David. I have a strong background in Quark as well as InDesign.

I’ve been enjoying the tutorials and the kind advice of the helpful people on this forum.

I recently became gun-shy about what lies ahead when reading threads about frames/CSS (The Blue Button!)/box model, etc. It’s rather daunting to hear the back-and-forth between various “camps”. Sort of like hearing one’s parents argue. :-)

I’ve had people tell me to not even consider producing a non-CSS site, citing the usual compliance issues.

Tell me, does it make sense to begin with frames and graduate to layers later on?

Thanks for taking the time to encourage a beginner!

Tobor

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Freeway will behave much more “print” like by having layers switched on.

David

On 2 May 2010, at 22:31, “Tobor The 8th man” <email@hidden> wrote:

Tell me, does it make sense to begin with frames and graduate to layers later on?

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Tell me, does it make sense to begin with frames and graduate to layers later on?

Frames are not analogous with layers - don’t get them confused as Frames are something else entirely that are greatly frowned upon these days as very un Search Engine friendly.

CSS Layout and Table Layout are the two schemes (Blue) Button on and off - only Blue if your system preferences are set that way.

There are added variations which you have read about including the Box Model layout which does take quite a bit to get used to. As David Owen suggests CSS on is probably best suited to what you want but keep an eye on what happens when text is enlarged in the Browser.

For specific page layout problems there is always someone listening when you call out.

David

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Thank you both. I was confusing terms.

One more question and it’s back to the tutorials…

Does CSS layout produce a more SEO-friendly result than Table Layout?

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Does CSS layout produce a more SEO-friendly result than Table Layout?

No - that part is down to your input and construction - have a look at Keith’s piece at http://www.thehelpful.com/befound/

David

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Hi Tobor,

I have had a similar starting point then you - on the one hand to create some web-stuff (cause I had customers and a personal interest) on the other to show all “web-guys” that the “printing-family” is also able to do. My choice by accident: FreewayPro.

I never regret that step, cause it´s so nice what Freeway can do for you.

My starting point was (and is still) just learning by doing. The most exciting thing to me was just to throw artwork (photoshop, illustrator …) onto the page, moving the elements to positions that I wanted - very naive and a bit of a child - but finally understood the more and more of it.

Sometimes you will stuck for some reason but you`ll grow with your work.

I recommend just to “think DTP” to start and recommend “extreme layer based” psd work. And after all the basics you onetime will step-by-step your wishes.

I add some examples from the past - as I said very naive, but it maybe motivates:

http://www.kimmich-dm.de/beta/index.php (my hopefully soon main page with hopefully a lot of freeway-stuff). Sometimes it´s enough when you see that things possible, the how is the next step :-)

http://www.kimmich-dm.de/kunden/sfensterle/index.html (draft that never came to business)

http://www.kimmich-dm.de/savoir%20vivre/index.html (similar to the one before)

BTW - “Inline BoxModel” is a thing I started very late, cause in there some of brilliant Freeway-Issues are plain-Jane not possible on that way. So start simple and have fun.

Thomas

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Although a copywriter by trade, I also had fairly extensive experience with InDesign (and the rest of the Adobe Design suite) plus a little Quark, and found Freeway a natural in the early days of FW1 & FW2 - and I’ve stuck with it ever since, even though I’ve tried others, both PC and Mac.

The one caveat is not to do with FW itself, but designing web sites on a Mac. They behave differently on a PC and sometimes between different browsers on both platforms. Always check across a few and especially Internet Explorer. And expect for typed content to take extra space on a PC in many instances. It’s one of the biggest frustrations when you look at your first site on a PC to find overlapping/overrunning content, but with a little experience the pain goes away.

Colin

On 3 May 2010, at 08:28, Thomas Kimmich wrote:

Hi Tobor,

I have had a similar starting point then you - on the one hand to create some web-stuff (cause I had customers and a personal interest) on the other to show all “web-guys” that the “printing- family” is also able to do. My choice by accident: FreewayPro.

I never regret that step, cause it´s so nice what Freeway can do for you.

My starting point was (and is still) just learning by doing. The most exciting thing to me was just to throw artwork (photoshop, illustrator …) onto the page, moving the elements to positions that I wanted - very naive and a bit of a child - but finally understood the more and more of it.

Sometimes you will stuck for some reason but you`ll grow with your work.

I recommend just to “think DTP” to start and recommend “extreme layer based” psd work. And after all the basics you onetime will step-by-step your wishes.

I add some examples from the past - as I said very naive, but it maybe motivates:

http://www.kimmich-dm.de/beta/index.php (my hopefully soon main page with hopefully a lot of freeway-stuff). Sometimes it´s enough when you see that things possible, the how is the next step :-)

http://www.kimmich-dm.de/kunden/sfensterle/index.html (draft that never came to business)

http://www.kimmich-dm.de/savoir%20vivre/index.html (similar to the one before)

BTW - “Inline BoxModel” is a thing I started very late, cause in there some of brilliant Freeway-Issues are plain-Jane not possible on that way. So start simple and have fun.

Thomas

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I don’t come from a print design background at all. I come from a strong editorial background and when I saw that my skills needed to move into a communications direction that embraced web design, I began exploring options.

First, I tried Dreamweaver. I even bought it. But it was a horror for someone who didn’t understand code and didn’t want to be mired in trying to learn that in order to produce a satisfying web site for small to mid-sized businesses. I would up with Freeway and until quite recently simply did table-based layouts, moving only in the last year to “blue-button-on” layered layouts. Now I’m expanding with a few of the “bells and whistles” that you’ve been reading about: carousel, fading slideshows, Moo accordions — that sort of thing.

I’ll be on a forever learning curve, even with Freeway, but it amazes even me that I can do what I do and satisfy clients. But I WOULDN’T be able to do it without this forum and taking time to find tutorials anywhere I can. (Try those on danjasker.com for some great starter tutorials. Very inexpensive and well worth the time.)

Again, I know you were looking to connect with print designers who have made the transition, but for me, the point of Freeway is that it opens the door to all sorts of people who understand the value of expanding their skills to the web in a way that’s relatively graceful and, despite some occasional frustration when you want to move to “the next level,” still the easiest way to go.

My penny’s worth. And good luck to you.

Laura

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Thank you so much, Thomas*, Colin, and Laura. Your responses are so helpful - and better yet, so encouraging. Hearing about your different backgrounds is so valuable. I look forward to the day I am helping the next new guy on the block!

Best regards,

Tobor

*Danke! :-)

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If I, who began in the industry before there were computers with which to do this stuff, can get it, anyone can get it.

What I’m finding if that for truly simple sites, let FW do the work. For medium-complex stuff, try to let FW do the work, but devote more time to “breaking” your site by: increasing text sizes in your browser; testing it in Windows browsers (got friends who will help test?)

Watch for the most egregious examples of broken, and come back here to ask how to fix them.

For really complex sites like a newspaper front page, stick with your freelancers. I’m finding it more than possible to get in over my head trying to tweak and fiddle with fine discriminations of tag font sizes, complicated nesting trying to get text and illustrations to sit just so, etc.

Firebug shows really almost random inheritance problems; FW seems to honor ems as units in some instances but not others; man, this list could get really long. I then wonder, given the rapidity with which the standards and methods change, how profitable it is to the pocket or the soul trying to master every little thing?

Interesting. So if you can keep it simple, FW will reliably do all the work for you. (Except maybe rotating graphic text. Anyone know how that’s coming?)

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Freeway is able to rotate graphic text, make sure it is graphic text in a graphic item though and not in an HTML item and forced to use graphic characters or paragraphs.

Joe

On 3 May 2010, at 19:09, Bucky Edgett wrote:

If I, who began in the industry before there were computers with which to do this stuff, can get it, anyone can get it.

What I’m finding if that for truly simple sites, let FW do the work. For medium-complex stuff, try to let FW do the work, but devote more time to “breaking” your site by: increasing text sizes in your browser; testing it in Windows browsers (got friends who will help test?)

Watch for the most egregious examples of broken, and come back here to ask how to fix them.

For really complex sites like a newspaper front page, stick with your freelancers. I’m finding it more than possible to get in over my head trying to tweak and fiddle with fine discriminations of tag font sizes, complicated nesting trying to get text and illustrations to sit just so, etc.

Firebug shows really almost random inheritance problems; FW seems to honor ems as units in some instances but not others; man, this list could get really long. I then wonder, given the rapidity with which the standards and methods change, how profitable it is to the pocket or the soul trying to master every little thing?

Interesting. So if you can keep it simple, FW will reliably do all the work for you. (Except maybe rotating graphic text. Anyone know how that’s coming?)

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“If I, who began in the industry before there were computers with which to do this stuff, can get it, anyone can get it.”

Bucky, we sound like we might be contemporaries. Want to buy a used Haber Rule?

Thanks a lot for sharing your experience…

Tobor

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Tobor, I’ve still got my Rapidographs, Schaedler rules, ship’s curves, K&E compasses, ruling tape; and there might be a few half sheets of rubylith somewhere!

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I was an amberlith man myself. :-)

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I still have a half-box of litho film around here somewhere, used to have the process camera to go with, but I left it behind a half-dozen moves ago.

Walter

On May 3, 2010, at 4:39 PM, Tobor The 8th Man wrote:

I was an amberlith man myself. :-)

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I still have a half-box of litho film around here somewhere, used to have the process camera to go with, but I left it behind a half-dozen moves ago.

Walter

A few of us are showing their age… including me.

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The big problem for me in learning to work by computer is that computers have no scents. (Hah!)

I still miss rubber cement, art markers, Spray Mount, etc.

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The smell of the waxer in the morning, or the developer for the Typositor….

Walter

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The heady aroma of cleaning off a mechanical with a Webril wipe soaked in Bestine thinner… often while smoking. :-0

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Hold on guys!

Do you want to give the impression that all FWers are old, wrinkly acetone sniffers that had to move on to keep up?

I know a lot of us are but we have to exude youth and agility to attract more youngsters to the FW fold.

Now where did I put that paste up board?

David

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Well it’s a good job I didn’t say to much then, as probably the oldest and wrinkliest in my 70th year, but the important thing is, in the last year or so I’ve introduced FW to a small number of young design bloods who have all been impressed by what FW can do.

FW may not be the perfect package for all, but it certainly spans all generations and allows me to impress (excuse the boast) clients a lot younger than me, even though none of my sites are as sophisticated as FW would allow in more skilled (and less arthritic!) hands.

Colin

On 4 May 2010, at 19:00, DeltaDave wrote:

Hold on guys!

Do you want to give the impression that all FWers are old, wrinkly acetone sniffers that had to move on to keep up?

I know a lot of us are but we have to exude youth and agility to attract more youngsters to the FW fold.

Now where did I put that paste up board?

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I come from pretty much the same place as you: I started doing print and after several people asked if I did websites, too, decided to get a copy of Freeway.

I agree with what everyone else is saying. Freeway can do most of the work for you. For people like us, it’s ideal for creating small to medium sites. However, I’ve found that little by little I’ve become interested in the code side of things. In this sense FW has been a great place to start, allowing me to learn things at my own pace, always knowing that FW will keep me from screwing things up in any major way.

To that end, I’ve been keeping a sort of running list of the things I’ve discovered along the way. They’re all quite practical, specific things to do within Freeway — things that will help streamline sites, make them more search engine friendly, create better code, etc. Feel free to have a look here:

http://www.freewaytalk.net/thread/view/50401#m_50401

It’s my way of hopefully helping others the way the kind folk around here have helped me. :—) Hope it’s useful.

Derek

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Dear Derek,

Great thread. You might want to consider adding links to http://www.freewaytalk.net/thread/view/69894 and http://www.freewaytalk.net/thread/view/58190 for some other basic principles.

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Just added those links. Thanks, Bucky!

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Derek, what an irreplaceable thread for beginners like me! Thanks to you, I have downgraded my Nervous Breakdown Alert Color to “orange”.

Tobor

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Aw, shucks. All in a day’s work :)

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